Logic and the Brexit referendum - the 3rd option

Usually the mainstream media sides with the Tories, but on this occasion the media is divided and supports both the remain and leave campaigns. As a result the claims from both camps are being exposed equally as lies. You can't fool all the people all the time and currently a large proportion of the public is seeing the system for what it is.

To an extent the campaign is effectively a Tory leadership contest. As both sides are lying and fomenting fear to "persuade" the public, neither side making an honest case for in or out, logically you shouldn't vote for either side. Whatever the result, we'll either have 1 or 2 corrupt and undemocratic governments representing the millionaires instead of the millions.

The 3rd way is to take part in a mass civil revolt using the referendum to change the system. WRECK THE REFERENDUM is a chance to change the system, possibly the last one the nation will ever have - the General Election in 2020 might see a different government than this one, there again it could be more of the same.

Not taking part in the WRECK THE REFERENDUM campaign would mean accepting 4 more years of pointless austerity with the remaining state assets likely to have been sold off at a discount to the City. HS2 and Trident would further burden the nation and future generations with pointless debt.

If we could get the millions who struggle to survive to spoil their ballot papers by writing WDC thereon (WE DEMAND CHANGE) and posting a photo on the campaign page to prevent fiddling the results, we would change the system. The message to the rest of Europe would encourage them to do something similar. We could roll Europe back to its original role as a trading area while new governments by the people would introduce policies for the benefit of the majority. Not Utopia, but a massive step in the right direction. https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=642025475952688&fref=ts

This could be the last chance ever to change the system.

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Dear john, oops sorry that's an old fashioned term isn't it.

Why do you think that 'old folk' don't have any progressive views / ideas?

Isn't it an old maxim that wisdom comes with age?

France and Germany may walk away from TTIP but that is because they / their governments have had a look at the details of the deal, (Which was conducted in 'Secret' - Why), and they don't like the 'progressive' nature of the prospective deal.

I am not suggesting that we walk away from Europe, Just the European Union, (And I don't buy any Newspapers), I am suggesting that unless we become involved in a federal Europe we will become more and more marginalised, as with our non membership of the Euro/ ERM and Shengen, we will have no say whatsoever. Unless you are fully committed to the whole, which no British or Scottish,(Not sure about Northern Ireland), Political party is, then it is only sensible to leave.

I heard a debate, (On TV), where in answer to the threat of leaving and its effect upon trade, that many countries outside the EU are lining up to negotiate trade deals with the UK once the freedom to do that is achieved. This was just from another of those economic 'experts', but he was an American postulating on the effects that brexit would have on them and world finances.

I took pains to offend no-one in my previous comment and I don't care whether you like my views. However 'OLD' I am, I still only have one vote, just like you!

Don't be afraid, there is a life outside the EU which is or can be every bit as good or even better.

Regards 

Well, apologies if offence was unintentionally caused, Peter, but as a 63 year old myself, I think I can call myself one of the 'old folk'. It's a bit of jump from that, I think, to suggest that I think older people don't have progressive views. But discussing whether supporters of 'In' or 'Out' are the more progressive probably won't be very fruitful.

The decision whether or not to stay in the EU is a vexed and difficult one. I happen to be on the other side from you. I'm interested in your point that if we are not fully in (Euro, Schengen, etc.) then it is better to be fully out. My own view is that the middle position in which we find ourselves, with most of the benefits of being in, and without some of the dubious burdens, is a very favourable one. We still wield a large amount of influence, a lot of which we will lose, if we leave. The other members have already cut us a lot of slack - if I was them I wouldn't cut us any more if we disrupt the whole show by leaving. Of course trade will continue - that's a given - but the devil is in the details.

I don't think we can really expect Europe and the world to treat the UK as it did in the 1960s, if we leave. Whether that will benefit us or not is hard to tell. But the world is now a smaller place where progressive people must act together, and so many of the issues are not capable of a single-state solution: the climate and migration, to name but two. Nation states are so twentieth century (if only . . . ).

One of the saddest aspects of this whole referendum debate is the way it is illustrating how un-united this island has become, and how it has driven us further apart, and into ourselves. This was brought home to me by this very interesting piece by the polling organisation Populus:

http://www.populus.co.uk/2016/05/brexit-index-whos-remain-leave-sup...

Wouldn't it be nice if this debate really was being discussed on logic and the facts, instead of the visceral emotions and divisions which have so scarred it?

Good wishes

John

Peter Martin said:

Dear john, oops sorry that's an old fashioned term isn't it.

Why do you think that 'old folk' don't have any progressive views / ideas?

Isn't it an old maxim that wisdom comes with age?

France and Germany may walk away from TTIP but that is because they / their governments have had a look at the details of the deal, (Which was conducted in 'Secret' - Why), and they don't like the 'progressive' nature of the prospective deal.

I am not suggesting that we walk away from Europe, Just the European Union, (And I don't buy any Newspapers), I am suggesting that unless we become involved in a federal Europe we will become more and more marginalised, as with our non membership of the Euro/ ERM and Shengen, we will have no say whatsoever. Unless you are fully committed to the whole, which no British or Scottish,(Not sure about Northern Ireland), Political party is, then it is only sensible to leave.

I heard a debate, (On TV), where in answer to the threat of leaving and its effect upon trade, that many countries outside the EU are lining up to negotiate trade deals with the UK once the freedom to do that is achieved. This was just from another of those economic 'experts', but he was an American postulating on the effects that brexit would have on them and world finances.

I took pains to offend no-one in my previous comment and I don't care whether you like my views. However 'OLD' I am, I still only have one vote, just like you!

Don't be afraid, there is a life outside the EU which is or can be every bit as good or even better.

Regards 

The point is John that as those nations which are inclined move closer to a federal European State, there will be more and more 'tables at which we do not have a chair'.

We will be excluded from so many decision making meetings that our voice will mean nothing in Europe, and much less in the rest of the world than it does now. The UK will be marginalised on the edge of europe and it will be too late to start negotiations with the rest of the world over new trade deals. As Europe's finances improve I would not be surprised if they actually ejected us because we do not follow their ideal plan.

As of the news today, you can add a European Army that we will not be any part of. (So much for 'Stronger and Safer together'). You see the point. We just don't want to play and should leave the pitch.

Regards

Interesting to see so many comments being made, but disappointing that everyone seems to be making in/out decisions based on the crap being pumped out by the factions.

As I live in Sotland, I observed the same campaign as this one 2 years ago, it's like deja vu.  What summed it up for me was that The Sun was calling for remain, The Scottish Sun was calling for the Scots to leave.

That's where we're at, listening to llie after lie, taking part in a Tory leadership contest. When UKIP clocked 4 million votes at last year's GE, it couod have been more had the Tories not made the manifesto pledge to hold this Brexit referendum. That's why we're having one, because the Tories couldn't afford to lose votes to  UKIP. If we remain, so does Cameron, if we leave it'll be Boris.

I like the idea that if we leave then we can take out the Tories at the next GE. I agree that a left of centre Labour government would be great. Sadly, ut's not likely to happen, maybe a Labour-led coalition with the SNP. Whatever, that still leaves the Tories in power for 4 more, elected by 11..3 million of our more brainwashed citizens. You can't claim to live in a democracy  when the system's that rotten. 

So then, many thanks for reiterating the spurious arguments being held across the land by people who actually buy into this corrupt and undemocratic system with its media accidentally doing the job it's supposed to do, ie exposing the lies of both sides. Usually they're very understanding of the Tories and slag everyone else.

We have a legitimate right to do whatever it takes to change the system. Taking part in this referendum will still leave the people in charge in charge.

 The people of the UK do not wish to be ruled by legislation from an unelected Europena Commission  Nor do they wish to be part of a European Army. We already have NATO, which is an irrelevance since the demise of the Soviet Union and the disbanding of the Warsaw Pact Forces.

NATO has been involved in the bombing and dismemberment of  Yugoslavia, the destruction of Libya, the involvement in the Ukraine coup and the present build up of provocative forces in the Baltic states bordering Russia.

The European refugee crisis stems from wars in the Middle East and North Africa, supported by European powers to further the geo-political unipower aims of Washington.

The EU has not brought peace but mayhem to Europe

While there are plenty of asylum seekers, legal and illegal immigrants, you've got more in common with them than you have with Cameron, Murdoch, Boris, Philip Green et al.

While you're voting Brexit to stem the flow, urged to do so by Boris and Farage, both relatively recently arrived in the UK,  perhaps you'll be waving your flag for one of Queenie's birthdays, disliking Johnny Foreigner and all things not British. Just remember that she's not very English and her husband's a Nazi.

You have a point there, Martin - removing ourselves from the centre of parts of the discussion does carry the risks you outline. Nevertheless, the nations of Europe which together make up the EU are our nearest neighbours, and as in past centuries it will be in our best interests, I believe, to hug them close rather than turn our backs on them. It was the aim of the more successful UK statesmen in the Nineteenth Century to hold the balance of power in Europe and, though times are very much changed, the principle is still worth bearing in mind. Players who leave the pitch are not going to be have any influence on the result.

Good wishes

John



Peter Martin said:

The point is John that as those nations which are inclined move closer to a federal European State, there will be more and more 'tables at which we do not have a chair'.

We will be excluded from so many decision making meetings that our voice will mean nothing in Europe, and much less in the rest of the world than it does now. The UK will be marginalised on the edge of europe and it will be too late to start negotiations with the rest of the world over new trade deals. As Europe's finances improve I would not be surprised if they actually ejected us because we do not follow their ideal plan.

As of the news today, you can add a European Army that we will not be any part of. (So much for 'Stronger and Safer together'). You see the point. We just don't want to play and should leave the pitch.

Regards

While I have some sympathy with your views, David, and having suffered the Scottish Referendum it must be particularly galling to have to go through it all over again, I do urge you to hold your nose and vote for which whichever side you dislike least - it really isn't the case that both sides are equally bad.

We've seen how the language and mood of this debate has degenerated to the point where a wonderful person has been murdered. If we can do nothing else, we can get a grip on ourselves and do our duty as members of a democratic state. The time may come for revolution, but it's not this week. And there is lots of sensible information out there for those who seek it. Try this site:

https://fullfact.org/europe/

I have to say I don't think I have the heart to go on with this discussion at the present time, but if there's anything that can be done to civilise the debate, I'm up for that.

David von Geyer said:

Interesting to see so many comments being made, but disappointing that everyone seems to be making in/out decisions based on the crap being pumped out by the factions.

As I live in Sotland, I observed the same campaign as this one 2 years ago, it's like deja vu.  What summed it up for me was that The Sun was calling for remain, The Scottish Sun was calling for the Scots to leave.

That's where we're at, listening to llie after lie, taking part in a Tory leadership contest. When UKIP clocked 4 million votes at last year's GE, it couod have been more had the Tories not made the manifesto pledge to hold this Brexit referendum. That's why we're having one, because the Tories couldn't afford to lose votes to  UKIP. If we remain, so does Cameron, if we leave it'll be Boris.

I like the idea that if we leave then we can take out the Tories at the next GE. I agree that a left of centre Labour government would be great. Sadly, ut's not likely to happen, maybe a Labour-led coalition with the SNP. Whatever, that still leaves the Tories in power for 4 more, elected by 11..3 million of our more brainwashed citizens. You can't claim to live in a democracy  when the system's that rotten. 

So then, many thanks for reiterating the spurious arguments being held across the land by people who actually buy into this corrupt and undemocratic system with its media accidentally doing the job it's supposed to do, ie exposing the lies of both sides. Usually they're very understanding of the Tories and slag everyone else.

We have a legitimate right to do whatever it takes to change the system. Taking part in this referendum will still leave the people in charge in charge.

I'm sorry that you don't have the heart to continue the discussion and I don't intend to be uncivil, we all know that to change the system will require a mass civil protest at the very least.

Next Thursday there's a great opportunity to send out a message to everyone - those baffled folk who really don't understand why life seems so hard, the 1% themselves and the rest of Europe. Oh, and it would send out a great message to the US of A too.

In order to introduce policies that are in the interests of the 99%, that are also peaceful and sustainable, we need to change the system aka have a revolution. At the same time we need to redesign our democracy so that we have a new system ready to replace this one next time it falls over.

By taking part in the WRECK THE REFERENDUM campaign you are demanding change. That's far more democratic than keeping Cameron at No 10 or promoting Boris instead.

Leaving the people in charge in charge is not an option, we cannot allow this government without a mandate to receive any legitimacy. All those that never voted for them ie the vast majority of the nation should help to WRECK THE REFERENDUM and change the system.

  To associate the death of Jo Cox by a mentally unstable person with the EU referendum,is politicising of a very low level  

Supporting this WRECK THE REFERENDUM  nonsense,is non-participation in the biggest democratic decision of the UK in a generation.

Low turn-out plays into the hands of the status quo, as we have seen by the election of a Tory Govt by a little over 25% of the UK electorate.

Citizens have fought and died for the privilege of a democratic vote in their countries. To not vote or spoil the ballot paper is the option of a fool.

'He who does not paricipate in his democracy is condemned to be ruled by evil men'- Cicero of Rome.

Interesting to see so many comments being made, but disappointing that everyone seems to be making in/out decisions based on the crap being pumped out by the factions.

As I live in Sotland, I observed the same campaign as this one 2 years ago, it's like deja vu.  What summed it up for me was that The Sun was calling for remain, The Scottish Sun was calling for the Scots to leave.

That's where we're at, listening to llie after lie, taking part in a Tory leadership contest. When UKIP clocked 4 million votes at last year's GE, it couod have been more had the Tories not made the manifesto pledge to hold this Brexit referendum. That's why we're having one, because the Tories couldn't afford to lose votes to  UKIP. If we remain, so does Cameron, if we leave it'll be Boris.

I like the idea that if we leave then we can take out the Tories at the next GE. I agree that a left of centre Labour government would be great. Sadly, ut's not likely to happen, maybe a Labour-led coalition with the SNP. Whatever, that still leaves the Tories in power for 4 more, elected by 11..3 million of our more brainwashed citizens. You can't claim to live in a democracy  when the system's that rotten. 

So then, many thanks for reiterating the spurious arguments being held across the land by people who actually buy into this corrupt and undemocratic system with its media accidentally doing the job it's supposed to do, ie exposing the lies of both sides. Usually they're very understanding of the Tories and slag everyone else.

We have a legitimate right to do whatever it takes to change the system. Taking part in this referendum will still leave the people in charge in charge.

While there are plenty of asylum seekers, legal and illegal immigrants, you've got more in common with them than you have with Cameron, Murdoch, Boris, Philip Green et al.

While you're voting Brexit to stem the flow, urged to do so by Boris and Farage, both relatively recently arrived in the UK,  perhaps you'll be waving your flag for one of Queenie's birthdays, disliking Johnny Foreigner and all things not British. Just remember that she's not very English and her husband's a Nazi.

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