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Logic and the Brexit referendum - the 3rd option

Usually the mainstream media sides with the Tories, but on this occasion the media is divided and supports both the remain and leave campaigns. As a result the claims from both camps are being exposed equally as lies. You can't fool all the people all the time and currently a large proportion of the public is seeing the system for what it is.

To an extent the campaign is effectively a Tory leadership contest. As both sides are lying and fomenting fear to "persuade" the public, neither side making an honest case for in or out, logically you shouldn't vote for either side. Whatever the result, we'll either have 1 or 2 corrupt and undemocratic governments representing the millionaires instead of the millions.

The 3rd way is to take part in a mass civil revolt using the referendum to change the system. WRECK THE REFERENDUM is a chance to change the system, possibly the last one the nation will ever have - the General Election in 2020 might see a different government than this one, there again it could be more of the same.

Not taking part in the WRECK THE REFERENDUM campaign would mean accepting 4 more years of pointless austerity with the remaining state assets likely to have been sold off at a discount to the City. HS2 and Trident would further burden the nation and future generations with pointless debt.

If we could get the millions who struggle to survive to spoil their ballot papers by writing WDC thereon (WE DEMAND CHANGE) and posting a photo on the campaign page to prevent fiddling the results, we would change the system. The message to the rest of Europe would encourage them to do something similar. We could roll Europe back to its original role as a trading area while new governments by the people would introduce policies for the benefit of the majority. Not Utopia, but a massive step in the right direction. https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=642025475952688&fref=ts

This could be the last chance ever to change the system.

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 'i am a citizen of the world and all mankind are my brothers' -Tom Paine.

I am voting Brexit not for petty John Bull nationalistic reasons but in the interests of my fellow Europeans and the rest of the world.

David - do you know how many people spoiled their ballot paper?

Dear Joe,

Not too many I hope and judging by the result!

As Scotland. Northern Ireland and Gibralta all voted in and now seem to want to negotiate their own deals, / go their own way, if we take their votes from the official referendum figures then the British vote (England and Wales) must have been a resounding OUT.

The main concern for me now is that whilst we really need to get on and agree trade deals with the rest of the world, our Government seems only to be interested in what we need to give away in order to keep our trade with the EU. (And London seems to want its own deal as well??????).

Our opposition Party is in tatters and the Lib Dems are saying they would campaign on a manifesto to rejoin the EU. Talk about headless chickens!

I cannot hope for an early election because I am sure that the Tory remain team, if elected, would take a victory as a mandate to have the closest possible ties to the EU. (Seeking to go backwards would cost us much more dearly and I can already see the EU bankers rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect).

Out means OUT and Globalisation means trading with the world.

Regards

Peter 

 Peter, 

You are having problems with your maths regarding referendums. The overall votes are counted ,not individual areas.

The Leave vote was approx 17,400,00. The Remain was about 16,700,000 a difference of about 4%. So Leave won by exercising their democratic ballot.

16 million people were too dilatory ,lazy or downright too stupid to vote. I have seen a figure of 6000 for spoiled votes ,which is surprisingly low for the turn-out and an indication how serious the majority of voters took the referendum.

Those who advocate non-participation or spoiling their ballot paper  are agent provocateurs and are  inducing people to abrogate their duty as citizens to exercise their vote.

In some countries it is compulsory to vote and spoiling of ballot papers is a criminal offense. I am in favour of this.

If you do not vote or spoiled the ballot paper you have lost your right to complain at the result.

When enough time has passed for people to look back on this debacle dispassionately, we'll recognise that it was short-term political expediency that led to Cameron putting a Brexit referendum into the 2015 Tory manifesto ie he feared losing support to UKIP.

The unintended consequences are far reaching. Blaming people for voting for Brexit, is pointless. Some Brexiteers are undoubtedly racist and voted to leave because they hoped it would lead to a reduction of brown faces/Eastern Europeans in their communities. Anyone who voted because they thought they knew enough about the EU to make an informed decision is lying - Divide and Rule won again. 

Many others voted to leave the EU as a protest to 6 years of austerity. If you live in an area of high unemployment (and/or in poverty), the economic rationale does not apply - how could things get worse?

That's why I tried to encourage people to see this referendum for what it was - a Tory party leadership contest using the opportunity to curry favour with the rightwing to oust Cameron. In hindsight it would have been sensible for all of those disaffected people to use "WRECK THE REFERENDUM" as a means to demand change, but unless anyone has a time-machine...

This current limbo, where nobody has a clue as to what might happen, is a marvellous opportunity for the left to rally. Instead we see further evidence that our system is broken beyond repair with the coup against Corbyn. I am more impressed than ever with the steel he is showing in an almost impossible situation. He has been sabotaged in every way possible - the non-stop media attacks, including the BBC, have been orchestrated by people he thought were close allies. A weaker person would have capitulated by now, the reason he is able to continue in this untenable situation is his commitment to those who voted for him last year, real people.

Cameron may feel free to saunter off into millionaires-ville, having let everybody down, but Corbyn is determined to weather this storm. He's weathered many storms of late and anyone who cares for the millions instead of the millionaires should be on his side.

It's easy to be an anti-establishment activist online these days, sign a few petitions. post a comment etc, but ultimately, in order to achieve real change you have to be prepared to take part in a mass civil protest. We have to rally, 

There's no compromise here, we either help him or we'll be voting in a forthcoming General Election without a genuine socialist alternative - it'll be a choice between Boris and Boris-lite.

 @David von Geyer 

You have insulted the 17,400,000 British citizens who have voted Leave by implying they did not know the facts and some are racists

. The facts are staring us in the face for near 40 years of neo-liberalism supported by the policies of the EU.  High unemployment, housing crisis, low paid zero paid contracts, NHS CRISIS, School places crisis, privatisation of State utilities. ( effectively theft of citizens assets). Refugees crisis ,caused by EU/NATOinterference in Afghanistan,Iraq, Syria,Ukraine and Libya.

One just needs to observe to acquire knowledge,book learning is not the only means.

Th common sense of the people gave us Brexit and common sense is a very rare skill.

Academic research has found it to be absent in High IQ idiots.

Apologies for insulting those who voted for Brexit, I deduce that you may be a Brexiteer yourself. I note that you end by insulting people who might know a bit more about history than the majority of people and who take a keen interest in how and why the system works as it does.

I agree that observing and reading books are both ways to acquire knowledge, in my case I've spent 40 years as a political activist taking part in real action to try to make the world a fairer place for the majority. This has led to me to speaking to and learning from an incredible number of people, amongst others Manny Shinwell when I was 16 and Gordon Brown in 2010.

I agree that the majority of people are reasonable and civilised people, but the common sense of going with the flow hasn't decreased the power of the 1% and being meek and mild might lead, according to the Bible, to inheriting the earth, but sadly it won't include the mineral rights.

During the 40 years I have been constantly disappointed by the apathy of the majority. Its a form of Stockholm Syndrome, realising that you are oppressed, but able to live in that state either by accepting your oppressors' rationale that this is the natural order or by cocooning yourself in a bubble/burying your head in the sand/hiding under the bed/escaping from reality by taking drugs/choose your own cliche.

You rightly point out many of the failings of the EU, there are a lot more. I never suggested that anyone should vote to remain (or to leave) I recommended that the only logical approach to the referendum was to WRECK IT, sending a message to both Westminster AND Brussels that we need to change the system.

To that end I continue to recommend taking part in Redesigning Democracy ie creating a better system to replace this one as it collapses.

I'll take logic over common sense anytime. Oh, if you think I'm a high IQ idiot, which is a bit insulting, you're half right.

 @ David.

 Manny Shinwell is before my time, so I cannot make a judgements as to his political heritage. However Gordon Brown I regret to say has been a disaster as a politician, as a Chancellor and a Prime Minister.

He bequeathed us the debts of PFI, which is of course private financing of public works, such as hospitals and schools at  usurious rates on the taxpayer, which will burden us for years.

He also gave us the light touch regulation of the dodgy boys of the City of London, which has given London the reputation as the money laundering capital of the world.

A poor choice of mentor I am afraid.

I didn't say that Gordon Brown was a mentor, I just said that during my 40 years I met and learned from lots of people and gave 2 examples out of the thousands. Don't assume, keep up or shut up.

Ouch! This is starting to get nasty and personal.

David, we don't need the dust to settle to be aware that UKIP was gaining ground but with only one MP and its political leader unable to get elected, it was hardly a threat to the Conservative Party. Much more of a problem was the back benches of conservatism which had always been eurosceptic and were definitely gaining ground.

If the poles are to be believed, it was the 'real people' who supported Jeremy Corbyn who also supported the OUT vote.

As far as immigration is concerned, I do not believe that racists is the correct term. People who raise concerns about immigration are more concerned about the public services, Health, Education etc being unable to keep up with the rapid expansion of population the country has recently experienced. When it takes a month to get a doctors appointment, (My recent experience), and parents are finding it difficult to find a school, let alone a school of choice, then we need to put the brakes on for a time. We cannot just continue to flood the country with new workers without the means to feed them, house them, educate their children or provide them with a health service. 

As far as the EU is concerned, France- a founder member- currently has 7 million unemployed. Italy another founder member is broke. Greece was never ready to join but was drawn in to satisfy someones need to expand the union and is suffering for that desire. Lots of EU country's are questioning the direction of the policy makers especially those with high numbers of unemployed young people. The idea of 'Free Trade' (That is Tariff free trade) between European country's was a good one but the trade group has become a political organisation which seeks to dictate the developmental direction of its members. That is not acceptable and its not democratic.

Regards

Peter   

Apologies for retaliating, I'm on a yellow card.

I think that getting nearly 4 million votes made UKIP a threat to the Tories. Sure, not all of those votes were otherwise destined for Tory candidates, plenty of Labour and LibDem voters may have voted for UKIP too.

I haven't seen any studies showing where the Brexit votes came from, but logically at least some of the more right-wing members of society voted to leave. Logically many others are not racist, just concerned about the state of our public services that are undoubtedly creaking. Much of the creaking is obviously due to mounting immigration, but 6 years of underfunding due to austerity is also responsible. The myriad of reasons that persuaded people to vote to leave also include the perceived lack of democracy within the EU, particularly the fact that the commissioners are appointed by the governments of the member states and that their remit is to propose legislation. As these commissioners have entered into the TTIP negotiations in total secrecy, without any mandate from the peoples of Europe, to collude with the USA and global corporations, I'd say that was a good reason to vote to leave.

I may have mentioned before that I live in Scotland and that the Brexit and Remain campaigns used pretty much the same tactics as we experienced up here in 2014 during the run up to the Scottish Indy referendum. To play on fears is not a constructive way to persuade people to vote for one side or the other. The media in 2014 basically trashed the SNP's economic claims and spread fear about virtually every other aspect of life from threatening pensions, suggesting that Scotland would have to join the Euro and that we wouldn't be able to watch the BBC any more. Interestingly, The Sun down south was recommending Better Together while the Scottish Sun recommended a vote for Independence. Classic Murdoch...

Since then there has been constant crowing and gloating from those "I told you so" "one nation" Tory and Labour Better Together types as the price of oil has plummeted. The SNP isn't the most radical party around, but it's fair to say that an Independent Scotland could elect a pretty radical government that might address some real issues about wealth distribution. It is widely known that around 80% of the land in Scotland is owned by about 500 people/companies. However, about half of these are shell corporations in tax havens. The farming/land owning subsidies they receive far outweigh any tax that gets paid into the Scottish economy.

Of course, Scots were also "encouraged" to vote for Better Together due to the fear of not being in the EU, and that's backfired somewhat. The regional contrast between remain and Brexit votes cast needs no further study so it's not surprising that having put the possibility of a 2nd referendum in their manifesto (should Scotland vote differently from the rest of the country), the SNP is now pursuing an alternative future that could lead to the break-up of the UK. It was hardly worth bothering to keep Scotland in the UK as events have transpired.

The logic of voting for Brexit therefore is either that you are a racist, concerned that public services are threatened by immigration that cannot be controlled due to EU membership (and/or that public services are threatened by austerity)and/or the EU's lack of democracy and snide agenda to create a superstate. That last reason is enough in itself to justify voting to Brexit and it is now causing powerful ripples throughout the EU that should halt any further expansion of EU powers over sovereign governments. A slightly positive result of Brexit.

Sadly, democracy is in short supply, not least here in the UK. We have a First Past The Post electoral system designed when there were only 2 parties. We have the Additional Member System in Scotland and Proportional Representation in Euro elections. If a sport, such as football, had 3 different sets of rules depending on whether you were playing in a domestic or European league, people would recognise the illogicality of calling our nation a "democracy". I would also point out that in less than 2 years in Scotland we've had to fork out for 4 voting opportunities ie the Indy ref, a General Election, council and Scottish parliament elections and Brexit. Any idea how much that's cost? Most other parts of the UK have had 3 voting opportunities in just over a year. Again, any idea how much that's cost?

We can register to vote easily enough online and we can set up an online voting platform to reduce the cost of all elections. I've put a piece on the mechanics of how to do it, addressed security and many other issues on the Vote 4 Freedom Facebook campaign page: https://www.facebook.com/vote4freedom

Once you can hold referenda inexpensively whenever you want, it would be possible for the people to engage in policy debates. The first one would be to establish what constitutes a consensus - something that the Tories failed to do either for the Scottish or Brexit campaigns. This assumption that the government has the power to manipulate the people into dancing to a particular tune is well-founded, but on this occasion arrogance came before the fall of Cameron.

In time it would be sensible to move to a new system of representation - full accountability and the power to sack an MP for not keeping promises, for not fulfilling the public's agenda following lengthy policy debates (for new laws to rebalance society and the economy in the interests of the 99%) and collusion with big business would be a start.

Life shouldn't be treated as a rehearsal, we could all be living a much better one if we rallied to design and build a new system to replace this one. I'm not asking people to justify their policy or to support policies that I favour, I'm merely asking for fellow members of society to help create a new democracy that works for the millions, not the millionaires.

  

 You have made some cogent points David. I agree that the MSM have been out of line in their reporting on Brexit and have tried to influence people by their Project fear. To their astonishment it has not worked this time.

The MSM and politicians are now distrusted and when Cameron, OBAMA and Mark Carney opted for Bremain, the majority voted the opposite way.  This Brexit vote was a wake up call to the Establishment and a large portion of it was likely a protest vote against  the status quo. 

I am confused by the Scots Nats demand for independence. They wish to escape the UK and then jump into the prison of the EU, especially if they opt to enter the Eurozone. 

When a sovereign country gives up its currency issuing power it becomes enslaved. This is highly visible in the PIIGS countries, who have no control to invest in their economies and are at the mercy of the ECB and their neo-liberal and austerity policies.

The ECB is heavily influenced by Germanys' fear of inflation and one could say the Euro currency is the new Deutchsmark.

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